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A A A Comments (19) Wednesday, Oct 17 2007

Grateful for ManKind: I am disappointed at what I consider to be a very biased and inaccurate representation of the ManKind Project ["Weekend Warriors" by Chris Vogel, October 4]. I for one am very grateful for the project, its training and the Integration Groups. I am certain that much of what was said about the Houston center's activities regarding intimidation and inappropriate behavior is false. The rest seems to be taken quite out of context. I believe that responsible journalism requires you to write a story about men like myself who are grateful and have benefited so much from the program...Talk to our parents, wives, children and find out why 40,000-plus men have become better fathers, better men because of this wonderful program.

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Jerry Lavoie
Crawfordsville, Indiana

Boy Scouts: I experienced the MP training some years ago. It reminded me of my initiation into the Order of the Arrows while in Boy Scouts. I was terrified as a young boy by men with painted faces dressed up as Indians who yelled at me as I desperately held onto a rope while being led into the woods blindfolded. That earlier experience made the MP initiation less strange to me and actually kind of fun.

Both the Promise Keepers and the MP both grew out of the '90s men's movement and although very different in their philosophies, they arose from a real need. I feel if Michael's family and friends would shift a little of their energy from tearing down to considering what is attempting to be built by the MP experiment, they could utilize their findings in a way that makes sense to them and can still honor the life of Michael Scinto.

Obviously parts of the MP organization are working, and though some pieces may be restrictive, narrow or broken, so are the men in this country, and we are in desperate need of some large-scale help.

Crosby Bean
Houston

You said it: The writer's sensationalist treatment of the rituals shows exactly why they are kept secret. Taken out of context, they seem bizarre, cultish and even nutty. It opens participants to ridicule. In their proper context, they are part of a deeply moving and meaningful experience that has helped me and many other men enormously.

Mark Jones
Chicago, Illinois

Just like Mass: Your out-of-context description of the activities of the weekend does a great disservice to this work. Consider how a Sunday at a Catholic Mass might sound, with a similar hack job.

People were kneeling and chanting before a man wearing a skirt. They blew choking smoke around the room. The man in the skirt gave people human flesh to eat and blood to drink. He then doused an infant with water, producing screams of terror. You get the idea.

T.J. Smith
Milwaukee, Wisconsin

And from our online readers at houstonpress.com:

Nice job, Vogel: I can't believe some of these comments that people are writing. How can they not have sympathy for this Scinto family? This was a very powerful story, and hopefully it will save lives rather than destroy them. My heart goes out to the Scintos and I pray for them and wish them the best of luck. Please have faith, believe and do not pay attention to all the rude people, but know that there are people out here who do care. Nice job, Vogel...

Michael

Oversight needed: Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you, Mr. Vogel, for opening the door.

Frances

Preying: After reading this article, we strongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets, the ones who are desperately seeking help. Unfortunately, a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served.

Derrick and Shelley

A Mistake in Leadership

In the story "Weekend Warriors," we misidentified the executive director of The ManKind Project Houston. The current executive director is Greg Gondron.

The Houston Press regrets the error.

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Robert C-Brown 09/11/2009 2:28:00 AM

I am 28 years old and have been 'broken' for a long time. After my childhood best friend was murdered I began frantically searching for the Truth. A friend gave me the Bible as I had become interested in religion. I wanted to know what Jesus wanted me to do...(Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves...) I was convinced this line in the New Testament gave me an answer. I gave away my possessions, my money and even my shoes. I didn't want to be a hypocrite. I had a shirt, a cross and a pair of pants. Because according to Jesus in the Bible, everything you need will be provided to you by God. Well, I ended up homeless and stuck at a city park because that was the only place I could get drinking water. I slept on the sidewalk and at bus stops. I asked (begged) for food and money. My feet were bleeding and I was as lost as ever. I had enough change after buying some bread (I had walked into a seminary and some Franciscan Deacons gave me some money) to contact my family. My mother had been crying endlessly and wanted me back home. It felt so good to be saved. After that, I still felt 'broken'. I tried psychoanalysis. I tried new age workshops. I tried yoga, massage and spiritual retreats. I spent a lot of my college account that my dad had given me on therapy. Then I found the ManKind Project. I did the New Warrior Training Adventure in July 2005, same as Michael Scinto. I only just found this out. We could not have had more different experiences. For once I felt accepted. It was the best 'healing' for the money I had ever experienced. However, I decided not to continue with the group after I attended a couple I-Groups, for a number of reasons. The subject of 'unlicensed' individuals doing intensive therapy is a very important debate and will become more and more important to our society. Millions of people are in therapy, billions of dollars are spent on prescription medications. Our children are dropping out of school before they graduate at alarming numbers. Our divorce rates have skyrocketed and life is as complicated as ever. Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc.. etc.. the list of young adults who end up massacring their friends is literally endless and there are new horror stories everyday. Last week, a high school student from my hometown brought a chainsaw, a sword and 10 pipe bombs to school. He intended to blow people up and hack the rest to death. And these are the young adults... the stories of men and women who commit terrible atrocities during the course of their everyday lives is nothing but digusting. Something has got to be done about all of this. Will Religion help? No. Will Psychology help? No. This is a subject that MUST be discussed openly and free of anger or fear. I am starting a forum for anyone interested in this subject. There is a lot of misinformation on both sides of the coin. I have researched the Scinto case and I am appalled at the MKP Center of Houston. I really am. Michael Scinto's suicide has opened my eyes tremendously and I must thank him for that.
george 01/18/2009 12:37:00 AM

Carl Jung once wrote concerning psychoanalysis that what is elixer for one is poison for another. I am sure that many men found MKP helpful, I also know that many found MKP abusive. There are some groups in MKP that are healthier will others are abusive. But the point is MKP as an organization has focused little attention toward the negative effects because too many believe sincerely that "it's the best thing on the planet". MKP has had a bad habit of ignoring these abuses and ignored that some men will react negatively even to well intended facilitation. I consider MKP dangerous because so many within MKP are in utter denial that there could even be people harmed. Many in MKP are so ignorant of the history of psychology, it's use and abuse, that MKP is doomed to repeat the past. Giving depth psychological tools to poorly trained ametuers and permission to coerce others into particpating in unsafe and unaccountable practices is a serious ethical violation. Oh I forgot MKP is not therapy....bullshit!!!
Anonymous 05/04/2008 7:50:00 AM

When I went on the weekend it was for me a very positive thing. I realized that I could dedicate and commit to myself to do whatever I sould to over come my past traumas, and my patterns of depression and anxiety. I found some wise and loving support from a mentor and loving support from my group. But this was not enough. Many of MKP's processes in the i-groups were traumatizing and the men facilitating were inadequately trained, on what to do when signs of serious trauma emerge. This BS that MKP is NOT therapy is really legal rhetoric and used to skirt legal accountability. In consequence I believe MKP has skirted real accountability concerning when things go wrong in their practices. Being that one of MKP's values is "accountability" I find this "not therapy" stance a slippery hypocrisy of the organization that serves to diminish MKP's mission and the many positive things it does. I will not ever rejoin MKP until there is a liscenced therapist providing guidance to the groups, where they and only they are allowed to fascilitate. Others who want to fascilitate are not entitled to until they are liscenced. MKP deludes itself in believing in it's egalitarian model that all are entitled and capable of fascilitating. It's idiotic, it's unaccountable, and it's dangerous. If MKP would change this one thing and create a safe place for ALL men I would support them but they consistently avoid this issue.
James 04/29/2008 7:52:00 AM

With all that is said, no matter what side you are on, one fact remains--the concept of untrained, I mean trained in therapy and counseling by an accredited school, so called "men" creates an environment that is unhealthy for many people. I know, I know...it is "educating" men. Again by so called "men" who use scripted material based on a limited knowledge of the true male mentality. The first red flag..."sign this, it says you cannot talk about your experiences, what took place blah blah blah. The people within the organization removes the avenue of escape for people who want to get away for the mind games, be them sleep deprivation, limiting food, intimidation models. I understand the concept of finding out who you are; finding out what it is you want out of life and all the other concepts of being a person, not just a man. However, the so called "leaders" are sorely lacking the ability to close what they open and therefor cause harm not healing. For those men who feel they have gotten something out of it, that is wonderful, most likely you were missing some level of emotional, spiritual perhaps even mental warmth in your life. It may be that your parents did not teach you how to be a man, or you were unwilling, throughout your life, to be a real man. Who know and to the point does it really matter to anyone other than yourself that you were unable to attain the level of being a "man" without the help of other "men" who were in the same boat you were in? The organization is about money, 501-3(c) or not if you were concerned with men, invite them to your house, sit around and talk as friends. However, your protocol is about pushing a person to the end of their ability to say STOP, due to the stressors you put on them. The fact that you have men, or so they call themselves men, that are untrained and accept no responsibility for potential harm to other men makes your organization stand out at minimum, questionable. There are far too many red flags that signal (predators hoping to get more money from other men suffering REAL issues that need real help from Lic. therapists who understand the emotional harm that is caused by brining up past issues that are deep inside. If you stayed out of the therapist arena (ooops I meant Educational arena) and focused on sitting down at the camp fire talking like men perhaps you would not be subject to so many issues. Have a great day.....from a Man, a Man raised by parents who taught me that being a Man is about understanding that people have hearts, desires, pains and problems. That a Man takes his responsibilities without being told that they have to.
Throckmorton 12/17/2007 12:16:00 PM

Re: the analogy of the Mass and MKP, it is faulty. The Mass is not secret and MKP is. Anyone can go to Mass for free. I am not sure how you would describe the activities conducted during NWTA aside from what is done. If you like that sort of thing, you should own it and call it something else.
Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

Although I found the article to somewhat one-sided I agree that organizations that are built around the seeking of "donations" without a track record of community philanthropy are little more than elaborate grifts. The sad part is that the men who so ardously defend such organizations abilities to make them better men are the very ones who lack substance in any other area of their lives. Religions, fraternities and cults have long reached out to those with little individual coping skills to induct or "initiate" into their folds. These individuals are the ones who need the most help, true, but are also the ones who are also least able to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy behaviors in others. The thing that sets religions and fraternities apart from cults is that religions and fraternities do not require members to affix their signatures to iron clad secrecy agreements before welcoming new members. Groups that need to bind you legally to their secrets need to do so for their own protection which should be a red flag to someone when at the same time being told that it is in their (the new members) best interests. Members who hold their brothers in such high esteem should not require more than a handshake agreement at keeping one's word or secrets. If the MKP is such a great organization then they should focus less on fundraising and legal boilerplate and more on actually helping their target group - men.
Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

Although I found the article to somewhat one-sided I agree that organizations that are built around the seeking of "donations" without a track record of community philanthropy are little more than elaborate grifts. The sad part is that the men who so ardously defend such organizations abilities to make them better men are the very ones who lack substance in any other area of their lives. Religions, fraternities and cults have long reached out to those with little individual coping skills to induct or "initiate" into their folds. These individuals are the ones who need the most help, true, but are also the ones who are also least able to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy behaviors in others. The thing that sets religions and fraternities apart from cults is that religions and fraternities do not require members to affix their signatures to iron clad secrecy agreements before welcoming new members. Groups that need to bind you legally to their secrets need to do so for their own protection which should be a red flag to someone when at the same time being told that it is in their (the new members) best interests. Members who hold their brothers in such high esteem should not require more than a handshake agreement at keeping one's word or secrets. If the MKP is such a great organization then they should focus less on fundraising and legal boilerplate and more on actually helping their target group - men.
Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

Although I found the article to somewhat one-sided I agree that organizations that are built around the seeking of "donations" without a track record of community philanthropy are little more than elaborate grifts. The sad part is that the men who so ardously defend such organizations abilities to make them better men are the very ones who lack substance in any other area of their lives. Religions, fraternities and cults have long reached out to those with little individual coping skills to induct or "initiate" into their folds. These individuals are the ones who need the most help, true, but are also the ones who are also least able to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy behaviors in others. The thing that sets religions and fraternities apart from cults is that religions and fraternities do not require members to affix their signatures to iron clad secrecy agreements before welcoming new members. Groups that need to bind you legally to their secrets need to do so for their own protection which should be a red flag to someone when at the same time being told that it is in their (the new members) best interests. Members who hold their brothers in such high esteem should not require more than a handshake agreement at keeping one's word or secrets. If the MKP is such a great organization then they should focus less on fundraising and legal boilerplate and more on actually helping their target group - men.
J Reed 10/26/2007 9:51:00 PM

To Jackie: When you went through the weekend, di some one tell you not to reveal the events of the weekend or they'd "kill you." Before you did your weekend, were you "vulnerable" or just looking to do some self-searching If members spread false rumors and destroy lives, why hasn't any legal action been taken? This would be all over the news if it was as rampant as you make it seem. I'm wondering why I, nor anyone I know has never heard about this. If its true, I'll be the first to support you in taking action.
Jackie 10/25/2007 2:52:00 PM

J.Reed is a liar! Theese men are told to keep quiet,and they are told to keep evrerything from women. He may have reaped some sort of benefit from his group, but it is a cult. These groups go on without any supervision or guidance. They quickly deteriorate into dysfunctional hate groups. I encourage any women who are, or who have had this group involved in the destruction of their families to contact me via this publication. We need to support eachother, and we need to stand up to these family haters. Unchecked, and unsupervised therapy does a great deal of harm. These men display classic cult behavior. They all talk in "Warrior speek", and spouses who don"t like this creepy world are labeled as "not doing their work". They all seek other vulnerable men to bring to the "weekends". Theese men never drive themselves, they are driven there so they can't escape. If men "check -out" of the integration group they are shunned, and talked badly about. Theese groups even begin false rumors about ex-members in an attempt to destory their professional careers, or their marriages. They stalk and follow people to bully and scare them. Teese men blindly lie and manipulate to support eachother, and they lose touch with who they really are. Those of us who have had this cult destroy our lives know the truth. I hope Michael's family win's their battle, and I pray for my children's sake that I win mine. Please contact me if they are harming you in any way.
ed 10/24/2007 3:48:00 PM

I went through the Warrior Weekend three years ago and it was a positive and rewarding experience that I value to this day. I read the complete newspaper article and feel it grossly distorts what is actually experienced. It's my feeling that the family of this young man is looking for someone to blame and to reap the benefit from a lawsuit. This is typical of so many in our society who are unwilling to put responsibility on the young man for his own untimely end. The benefits of the Mankind Project to thousands of troubled men are evidence of the worth of this organization but not everyone can be helped identically or "saved" from themselves by the good work that is done. The article is just another attempt to tear down something good for men in this society when people should be looking to support it's efforts for the future.
J. Reed 10/23/2007 6:29:00 PM

I did my weekend in May of '93. It was one of the most life changing things I've ever done. What I do now as a father of two I attribute to the journey I began on that weekend. As a public school teacher, I can not say enough of how this weekend brought my connection to a deeper level with my students. When my son is ready, my hope is that he will go throught the weekend and I will trust him in the hands of the men there. As for the allegations of misconduct; 1) I've never seen any sexual activity 2) I've never been asked to do something sexual 3) I've never sensed any homosexual overtones on the weekend 4) NO one has ever threatened to kill me if I revealed what happens on the weekend 5) No one has ever humiliated me 6) I was never asked to do something I didn't wan to do 7) I have seen men leave the weekend but have never seen anyone pressured to stay. Is Warrior Perfect? No. Can things be changed? Yes. Have mistakes been made? definitely and warrior is accountable. It is not the end all of self improvement. Warrior is imperfect and can be changed. In fact they have responded to mistakes in the past by changing the protocols. Secrecy? A better word for me would be sacred. The only reason I don't tell my friends about what happens is because they may choose to go through it one day. If they know whats going to happen, it would diminish the experience. I feel sad for the Scinto family. Their loss is unfathomable. My hope is that this suit albiet misdirected, will bring them some kind of relief.
Dawn Bradley 10/22/2007 7:57:00 PM

I think Chris Vogel's depiction of the MK Project was very objective. He expressed both sides of the story which is what journalism and freedom of speeach is all about. MKP preys upon the weak. They claim to make them stronger, better men. Michael Scinto lost his life, so for those out there that believe in MKP, please explain. Why are they so secretive? Why do they recruit at Al-Anon meetings? Why do they hold there meetings (i.e. ceremonies, rituals) out in the middle of East Texas and do not allow their participants to leave, if they feel uncomfortable, as Mr. Scinto did? Why won't they come forward about their agenda. MKP nor people in their organization are licensed counselors, psychiatrists, psychotherapists, so they should not be conducting as if they were. My prayers are with the Scinto family and justice will prevail in their favor. Michael's memoray and family and friends will amke sure of that Dawn
Amorosa 10/22/2007 9:11:00 AM

Help!!! The air crash in Phuket on September 16,2007 has killed many people .. now there are 3 diffirent law firms mostly from USA try to get those survivors and family of the death passengers to sign up for sue against Boeing ... are the case for real .. why they have to complete so aggressively? Which one is the most trustable or reliable and how can we ensure that they survivor and family won't be cheated by these people .. here are the list of Law Firm ... Ribbeck Law, Newton B Schwartz, and Nomaan K. Husian .. please help those people who been suffering ... don't let them to be suffer by the business mind person ...
chris 10/22/2007 4:19:00 AM

Secrecy to avoid misrepresentation? Gimme a break! If you operate openly and transparently you can represent yourself, and be represented fairly and accuratly. There is only one reason for secrecy. You have SOMETHING to hide. Why has no defender of the "project" expressed any sympathy or regret for this unfortunate tragedy? Why so defensive? This is not a test. This is only a test.
chris 10/22/2007 4:11:00 AM

Now here I see a very knowledgable-SOUNDING defense of the "project". Of course, it committs suicide when it includes in the defense a likening of the CULT with various othe CULTS it names, all of which are WELL-established as different aspects of the same very ancient and most evil, sadistic, and power-hungry cabal to have darkened ALL of MANKIND'S history. This Is ALL A Smokescreen - You have been HOODWINKED
Patti Henry 10/19/2007 1:56:00 PM

Here is the letter I wrote to the editor last week, though I don't see it published:To Whom It May Concern: The irony of sandwiching your scathing article of the New Warrior training implying how damaging it is to men in-between all the ads for the topless bars, massages parlors, and escort services wasn�t lost on me. Whatever the faults of the Mankind Project, they pale compared to the ongoing daily sexual abuse of women in these establishments, not to mention the proliferation of drug, alcohol, and sexual addiction for both men and women there, and the impact all of this has on families, children, and the world. Where�s your in-depth research article on them, please? Respectfully, Patti Henry, M.Ed., L.P.C. Author of The Emotionally Unavailable Man: A Blueprint for Healing
10/18/2007 3:22:00 PM

I can't help but find irony in T.J. Smith's proclamation that Catholic Mass would seem sinister out-of-context. I'm sure the myriad altar boys who were molested by Catholic priests find the church to be sinister regardless of context.
scared 10/17/2007 8:16:00 PM

Chris Vogel's article was actually mild. The warrior movement is attempting to destroy my children's lives. They are herassing me, intimidating me, following me, and pressuring me to give up my children to one of it's cult members. I am certain that there are some people who felt The Manson clan was begun with good intentions, but look at how that ended. There is simply no system of checks in this group. Each integration group can do or say whatever they want, to who ever they want. This is a dangerous and disturbing group, and I know this first hand. They need to be stopped.

The ManKind Project

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Robert C-Brown 09/11/2009 2:28:00 AM

george 01/18/2009 12:37:00 AM

Anonymous 05/04/2008 7:50:00 AM

James 04/29/2008 7:52:00 AM

Throckmorton 12/17/2007 12:16:00 PM

Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

J Reed 10/26/2007 9:51:00 PM

Jackie 10/25/2007 2:52:00 PM

ed 10/24/2007 3:48:00 PM

J. Reed 10/23/2007 6:29:00 PM

Dawn Bradley 10/22/2007 7:57:00 PM

Amorosa 10/22/2007 9:11:00 AM

chris 10/22/2007 4:19:00 AM

chris 10/22/2007 4:11:00 AM

Patti Henry 10/19/2007 1:56:00 PM

10/18/2007 3:22:00 PM

scared 10/17/2007 8:16:00 PM

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The ManKind Project

Raw Nerves

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Robert C-Brown 09/11/2009 2:28:00 AM

george 01/18/2009 12:37:00 AM

Anonymous 05/04/2008 7:50:00 AM

James 04/29/2008 7:52:00 AM

Throckmorton 12/17/2007 12:16:00 PM

Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

Shawn 11/23/2007 10:41:00 AM

J Reed 10/26/2007 9:51:00 PM

Jackie 10/25/2007 2:52:00 PM

ed 10/24/2007 3:48:00 PM

J. Reed 10/23/2007 6:29:00 PM

Dawn Bradley 10/22/2007 7:57:00 PM

Amorosa 10/22/2007 9:11:00 AM

chris 10/22/2007 4:19:00 AM

chris 10/22/2007 4:11:00 AM

Patti Henry 10/19/2007 1:56:00 PM

10/18/2007 3:22:00 PM

scared 10/17/2007 8:16:00 PM

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